NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

All bug reports here please
RadioSDR1
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:41 pm

NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#1

Unread post by RadioSDR1 »

Not sure if what I am observing is a bug, behavior by design, or something I am missing.

A key point before I go on is that I am a laptop user without an external mouse or scroll wheel. I just have the laptop touch pad with left and right mouse buttons.

With NR, if I make any change and then move the mouse cursor back over the waterfall area and then use the left and right arrow keys to change frequency, it endlessly toggles thorough NR1 NR2 NR3 NR4 and OFF but also at the same time changes frequency as desired/expected. As a workaround, I try to remember to always click somewhere else first (for me usually the mode button ie LSB) after fiddling with the NR and then move the mouse cursor to the waterfall area and then I can change frequency with arrow keys without toggling through the NR modes. This exact same behavior also exists with AGC too but does not exist on any other settings that I am aware of.

With Binaural, I find this is a great feature for listening to music on shortwave in order to get a faux stereo sound (much better than the Pseudo Stereo in my opinion). However and for some reason, NR does not work at all if Binaural is enabled. The issue is that without NR, the signal to noise is much higher so unless the signal is very strong, it makes the quality less desirable.

With general tuning (via the left and right keyboard arrows), this only works if the mouse is over the waterfall area. For example, if changing between LSB and USB mode and then immeadately going to the arrow to change frequency, the arrow keys will not change frequency unless the mouse is moved back to the waterfall area. It would be nice if it could work no matter where the mouse is and no matter what was clicked on last.

Any thoughts, comments, or follow up questions appreciated.

RadioSDR1
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:41 pm

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#2

Unread post by RadioSDR1 »

Update on NR4 Bug.

This issue has not changed in any of the updates issues since my first post in June and is still a problem.

However discovered something interesting.

If one uses Favorites where one Favorite is say is configured for AM mode and another Favorite is configured for say LSB mode, switching between the two Favorites will not trigger the undesired garbled waterfall effect. Also, if one triggers this bug by manually changing the mode, merely hitting a Favorite configured for any mode will fix it.

Also interesting to note, if one uses Memories, it will trigger the problem in the same way manually changing the modes does.

So it seems like the solution to this might be in the code of how the Favorites function handles NR. If that methodology could somehow be applied to manual mode changing and Memories, that might fix this.

RadioSDR1
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:41 pm

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#3

Unread post by RadioSDR1 »

Another Update. Something very interesting.

The default values of NR 4 are Reduction 5dB, Smoothing 10%, and Rescale 2 dB. If you have these default values, my previous post a few minutes ago is null and void and this NR4 thing is a problem with Favorites like anyplace else.

BUT...if you change any of the three NR4 parameters, even if just one notch in either direction, then what I posted earlier does hold true which is that switching modes between Favorites will be immune from the NR4 problem.

Interestingly and in other words, if you change NR4 from default, that buys you nothing anyplace else except for Favorites.

Quirky thing this all is.

So it seems that code relating to NR4 default vs. non default settings may be factor at least as far as Favorites is concerned.

Max
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:47 am

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#4

Unread post by Max »

RadioSDR1 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:15 pm Not sure if what I am observing is a bug, behavior by design, or something I am missing.

A key point before I go on is that I am a laptop user without an external mouse or scroll wheel. I just have the laptop touch pad with left and right mouse buttons.

With NR, if I make any change and then move the mouse cursor back over the waterfall area and then use the left and right arrow keys to change frequency, it endlessly toggles thorough NR1 NR2 NR3 NR4 and OFF but also at the same time changes frequency as desired/expected. As a workaround, I try to remember to always click somewhere else first (for me usually the mode button ie LSB) after fiddling with the NR and then move the mouse cursor to the waterfall area and then I can change frequency with arrow keys without toggling through the NR modes. This exact same behavior also exists with AGC too but does not exist on any other settings that I am aware of.
This is annoying yes, but it's not a bug. I've had this conversation on the forums with Simon on more than one occasion. It depends on the style of button Simon has used as to whether you see this behaviour. Yes, you will see it on any of the "gray" buttons, and often the ones most used of this style are in the RX DSP panel, so like you say, NR etc. It's OK on any of the "black" buttons, like filter width, mode etc. Be nice actually of Simon could change the style of the NR buttons etc to the same as the black buttons? My guess is it's too much work to go back and change the interface for those functions as those gray "Windows" style buttons are used in a lot of places in SDRC.

The problem is that for this style of button, you are observing native Windows behaviour. It's most annoying for those of us that use the cursor keys as the principle method of tuning. I do, in fact it was me that requested it being added a couple years back.

It's not ideal but the easiest way out of the "loop" is to simply select then deselect a "radio" style Windows button. I usually use the CW "Peak Enable". Button. After changing any of the other gray buttons (NR etc.) simply "tick" then "untick" the CW Peak Enable radio button then hover cursor back into he waterfall. Job done. Others may know a neater method to "deselect" the cursor keys (Joanne perhaps?). I wish Simon could solve this one too but for now that's what I do as a workaround.

Hope it helps.

Max

RadioSDR1
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:41 pm

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#5

Unread post by RadioSDR1 »

Hi Max. So it sounds like a bug in the Windows function that SDR Console depends on! That bloody @#$$@!# Micro$oft! :)

Ya, I see the CW Peak Enable but for me I always have that closed so if I click on, as you say, a black button (i.e. LSB or whatever) that's one click where as CW Peak Enable would be three clicks, one to open, one to check, and one to close again. But if someone has CW Peak Enable open all the time, then it's only one click. Anyway, at least I now know the issue has to do with an underlying quirk with a Windows function.

As long as I have your ear, I've noticed that one cannot do a Quick Access button for any function in the Receive pane. Is that also a result of a constraint imposed by an underlying Windows issue?

Also, do you have any insight into this "garbled waterfall" sound from NR4 when changing modes (ie LSB to AM)? Or is that phenomena caused by the same thing as the arrow key loop?

Max
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:47 am

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#6

Unread post by Max »

RadioSDR1 wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:29 pm Hi Max. So it sounds like a bug in the Windows function that SDR Console depends on! That bloody @#$$@!# Micro$oft! :)

As long as I have your ear, I've noticed that one cannot do a Quick Access button for any function in the Receive pane. Is that also a result of a constraint imposed by an underlying Windows issue?

Also, do you have any insight into this "garbled waterfall" sound from NR4 when changing modes (ie LSB to AM)? Or is that phenomena caused by the same thing as the arrow key loop?
I think the gray button/cursor keys issue may not be a bug. I think it's possibly to do with accessibility features of Windows to be able to cycle through options for non-mouse users using the cursor keys. I'm not totally sure. That's why I was asking for input from Joanne as she seems to be the oracle on these things and I think she mentioned it before some time ago.

Quick access...... in general I only find the right click "Add to Quick Access Toolbar" feature applies only to some buttons in the Ribbon Bar near top of screen? By "Receive" pane do you mean the RX DSP panel or in an individual "Receiver" pane. In either case I don't think these can be added. But many functions from the "Receive Tab" on the Ribbon Bar can be.

OK on the whole CW Peak, black button thing. In fact you've found a much better way around deselecting the gray buttons than I had. Yes, just touching any of the black filter or mode buttons, even the one already selected, cures the issue. Thanks for your much nicer way out of the "loop" with just one mouse/pen click.

NR4...... again, sorry, not sure. I hardly ever use any of the NR functions, not only on SDRC but on any radio or software. I just cannot get along with the warbling sounds that you mention. If I did use it, for me it would only ever really be on sideband signals. I must admit NR4 usually does a good job on the default setting. On the rare occasions I do use it, I mess about with it but often just end up pressing the "reset to default" button to get the best result. Other than that, can't be of help.

Max

Max
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:47 am

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#7

Unread post by Max »

Max wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:34 pm
I think the gray button/cursor keys issue may not be a bug. I think it's possibly to do with accessibility features of Windows to be able to cycle through options for non-mouse users using the cursor keys. I'm not totally sure. That's why I was asking for input from Joanne as she seems to be the oracle on these things and I think she mentioned it before some time ago.
Did quick search. If you are in Test Team You can see I raised this issue in June 2020 and see also the responses:

https://groups.io/g/SDR-Radio-TestTeam/topic/75092163

Max

RadioSDR1
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:41 pm

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#8

Unread post by RadioSDR1 »

Hey Max. Well I was half teasing about the button/cursor loop issue being a Windows bug because it often seems to me a lot of clunky convoluted behavior from the Microsoft world is often said to be by Microsoft a "feature" or perhaps "behavior by design" when in all actuality common sense would say it is a bug or just a really clunky bad design. I like to beat up Micro$oft whenever the opportunity presents itself. :)

With the NR4...if you have not messed around with Simon's improvement to NR4 (which I think first came at the end of June update) because of the garbled waterfall effect with the old NR4, you should take a look at this because it is a real improvement. The default settings do not have the garbled waterfall effect at all. And if one wants to improve the noise reduction beyond default, that will induce a garbled effect. However the trick is to add way more smoothing. For instance, suppose you increase reduction from 5db to say 9db. The smoothing may need to be increased to 50% or so to get rid of the garbled effect. In general, moving around the rescale is not necessary although increasing it to 3db or 4db may help.

The only exception to all this is if one likes to listen to music on shortwave or AM broadcast. There, I sometimes reduce the NR4 to 3db of reduction and then add 15% or 20% of smoothing because you do notice the NR on music...not because of waterfall garble but because it makes music sound flat and hollow in a way that isn't an issue with voice (at least to my ear). However if binaural mode is on for what I call the "ionospheric faux stereo effect", the NR doesn't work at all which is another one of my earlier "bug" reports. But I digress.

Anyway, the "new" NR4 is quite good. The separate issue of it triggering a garbling noise after changing (from some) modes is a real pain but is easily fixed as a workaround by just moving one of the NR4 sliders and putting it back. If one doesn't know to do that and one happened to change modes (i.e. from AM to LSB) one might think NR4 is terrible but it's not. All you have to do is move one of the NR4 sliders and put it back and problem solved.

P.S. I am not a member of the test team so the link you sent requires a username & password that I do not have.

P.S.#2 Yes, I was talking about the DSP panel. It would be quite nice if someday one could do quick access buttons or keyboard shortcuts for any function on the DSP panel.

P.S.#3 Back to the topic of noise reduction. Another thing I do is run the AGC in slow mode but play around with the threshold. Default is -130db. But if you increase that, there is often a sweet spot where white noise is dramatically reduced but doesn't squash the audio volume. As radio conditions change or if one switches stations this will need to be tweaked. For garden variety shortwave or broadcast and amateur radio listening, I usually find that sweet spot between -75db and -45db depending on band conditions and the strength of the incoming signal. Between doing this and the "new" NR4, the overall NR is often perfect or near perfect. It's somewhere between almost as good to perhaps slightly better than NR in SDR# in my opinion.

P.S. #4 Sorry this is so long. One other NR observation. A garbled waterfall effect can also occur when the background noise conditions are fluctuating with both NR4 and the IF AGC on. Because of this, I normally do not use IF AGC. What I will do instead is briefly turn it on, adjust the waterfall background for "normal blue", and then manually set the IF to match it. That way optimal IF is applied without the IF AGC chasing background fluctuations that sometimes create a garbled waterfall effect.

Max
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:47 am

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#9

Unread post by Max »

RadioSDR1 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:23 pm With the NR4...if you have not messed around with Simon's improvement to NR4 (which I think first came at the end of June update) because of the garbled waterfall effect with the old NR4, you should take a look at this because it is a real improvement.
I'm nearly always running the latest "test" version so yes, I have NR4 latest. But thanks for all the tips. Very useful. You have encouraged me to give it a longer and more fair-minded trial!

I am a little the same way when decoding CW. People seem to be ruthless about the need for razor sharp perfect narrow filtering, but I started on a radio with 2.8 kHz filtering at best (for a few years), so I quickly got used to picking out the required CW signal purely by ear. Hence I often don't even bother turning from SSB to CW filter on to listen to CW signals. So that's probaly where I say NR does not bother me too much, but if it works well then why not? For sure, I'll give it more of a go!

Hope Simon picks this post up regarding the mode switching oddity.

73

Max

RadioSDR1
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:41 pm

Re: NR & AGC, Binaural AM/SAM and Tuning

#10

Unread post by RadioSDR1 »

If you're mainly CW, ya, the NR might not be that big of a deal. But anyone that is like me and plugs the SDR into a nice stereo vacuum tube amplifier and dials in the NR, AGC, bandwith, & EQ just right, wow, voice and music can often sound just like or near FM broadcast at times especially when the ham or AM or shortwave broadcast station has good audio processing on the transmit side.

Anyway, yes, with the new NR4 one can eliminate the garbled waterfall sound if all the settings dependencies are met. If you decide to experiment and find that's not true and are in the mood to chase it down, feel free to ping me for troubleshooting.

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