This is probably not a supported problem but I post wondering if someone has any ideas.
So I want to use a 20 foot USB-C cable with PD (power delivery). So I have one cable on my computer that supplies both power and devices from the distant USB hub. All is well except for one thing and that's SDRConsole and an RSPDX-R2. I get glitchy pops. These are not very loud and sometimes several seconds may pass before I hear one or perhaps a burst of several.
I had a troubleshooting conversation with Google Gemini AI and that eventually revealed that this is not a problem on SDRUno so long as "USB Bulk" is turned on. That is not a default setting for SDRUno. And if not turned on, SDRUno has a problem with this too though maybe somewhat less so than SDRConsole.
I know the cable is really long and if it was shorter, SDRConsole would be fine. Gemini's ideas for making various changes to Windows as a workaround did not work. And could not help me find a setting in SDRC that was equivalent to USB Bulk in SDRUno.
Any ideas that might let me tweak the USB settings to allow me to have my cake and eat it too with this long cable would be greatly appreciated.
USB Error
Re: USB Error
Run 20' more coax and stop worrying about the bad audio.
JMHO
JMHO
73 Kriss KA1GJU Home of the KA1GJU Super Station SDRC Servers in NH, USA (FN42mw, FN43na, and FN42lt)
Re: USB Error
That's what I used to do. But it's super slick to hide the SDR, USB TV dongle, laptop power supply, and USB hub behind furniture and have one long wire that delivers everything including power.
I know. This is a first world problem.
Cheers!
I know. This is a first world problem.
Cheers!
Re: USB Error
Oooookay, you want 20' of USB and use it for power delivery. I won't say it's not going to happen; but, it will be complicated, highly parts specific, and annoying to get right. You do want bulk transfers. You CAN use a so called active repeater cable. That's a cable with an active signal repeater inside that relays what power it does not use on wards. With an RTL dongle I've managed two such cables at 15' each plus a straight 15' extension cable attached to the RTL dongle. It worked. I did this for a test. I never used it a lot. I suspect the RSPDX-R2 uses a little too much power for this to work reliably. But a 15' active repeater cable plus a simple 10' extension will give you the length with a little spare and MIGHT deliver enough power. It's a cheap try.
The reason for this clumsiness is something most people ignore in their daily lives, the speed of light. It takes time, perhaps 20-25 ns for a signal to propagate from the computer to the end of a 15' cable and what lives there. That device takes time to recognize the signal. And it takes another 20-25 ns for its reply to come back to the computer over the wire. As part of the handshaking for USN those delays are factored into its wire level of the protocol. Go much longer than that and reliability goes down. If you put a repeater, a single port hub, at the end of the 15' it has the electronics to perform the handshake in time. If you go 20' of cable instead the extra 15 ns or more of round trip delay confuses the handshaking. (In free space a 1' wire is pretty darned close to a 1 ns delay for light. In a cable it's often half again as much delay.)
Most likely if you try this you'll find it easiest to find 15' (5 meter) cables. Stick a hub between two cables (with appropriate connectors) and place it between where you want the active end and the computer so that is is near enough to a wall socket you can use a power hub. That will almost certainly work.
{^_^}
The reason for this clumsiness is something most people ignore in their daily lives, the speed of light. It takes time, perhaps 20-25 ns for a signal to propagate from the computer to the end of a 15' cable and what lives there. That device takes time to recognize the signal. And it takes another 20-25 ns for its reply to come back to the computer over the wire. As part of the handshaking for USN those delays are factored into its wire level of the protocol. Go much longer than that and reliability goes down. If you put a repeater, a single port hub, at the end of the 15' it has the electronics to perform the handshake in time. If you go 20' of cable instead the extra 15 ns or more of round trip delay confuses the handshaking. (In free space a 1' wire is pretty darned close to a 1 ns delay for light. In a cable it's often half again as much delay.)
Most likely if you try this you'll find it easiest to find 15' (5 meter) cables. Stick a hub between two cables (with appropriate connectors) and place it between where you want the active end and the computer so that is is near enough to a wall socket you can use a power hub. That will almost certainly work.
{^_^}
Re: USB Error
Here's what I can say. The PD (power delivery) is not a problem. I realize that loses power through heat due to the long cable but the cable I use seem to be of high quality and that is not a problem.
And USB data is not a problem for the Happauge USB TV or the RSPDX-R2 in say 500 kHz mode. But in 2000 kHz mode, then you can get some soft yet annoying glitch pops. While my USB-C cable run and my powered USB hub are new and of good quality, my USB cable between the RSPDX-R2 and the hub was ancient.
I found a better cable and sprayed it with Deoxit5 and that is *almost* perfect.
The trouble with a repeater cable is that when a USB-C PD is involved, they generally want a power supply mid span which defeats the purpose. There are supposedly "bus powered" cables that do not need mid span power with repeaters, but I'm not sure how well those would work or the expense. So that's kinda sketchy unless I could get a credible affordable recommendation for one for this application.
FYI I do have a USB-A 5 meter repeater cable and experimentally I got about ~30 to-35 feet between that and other USB-A extension cables before the RSPDX-R2 choked.
So the basic premise of my question is if SDRUno can handle my "pushing the limits" situation, might it be possible to manipulate SDRConsole or Windows to do the same.
And USB data is not a problem for the Happauge USB TV or the RSPDX-R2 in say 500 kHz mode. But in 2000 kHz mode, then you can get some soft yet annoying glitch pops. While my USB-C cable run and my powered USB hub are new and of good quality, my USB cable between the RSPDX-R2 and the hub was ancient.
I found a better cable and sprayed it with Deoxit5 and that is *almost* perfect.
The trouble with a repeater cable is that when a USB-C PD is involved, they generally want a power supply mid span which defeats the purpose. There are supposedly "bus powered" cables that do not need mid span power with repeaters, but I'm not sure how well those would work or the expense. So that's kinda sketchy unless I could get a credible affordable recommendation for one for this application.
FYI I do have a USB-A 5 meter repeater cable and experimentally I got about ~30 to-35 feet between that and other USB-A extension cables before the RSPDX-R2 choked.
So the basic premise of my question is if SDRUno can handle my "pushing the limits" situation, might it be possible to manipulate SDRConsole or Windows to do the same.
Re: USB Error
Some devices are more sensitive to cable length than others. The USB2 specification limits cables to 5 meters. You are trying to run with more cable. Nothing is guaranteed under the conditions you are using. Note that SDRC is well above the USB interface level. You may have too little CPU or too little memory for SDRC. You may have other running applications that get in the way. But, *I* am not going to bust my 82 year old brain to help somebody run an apparatus out of specifications. My remaining life is too short, especially when the notion that 20' is larger than the USB2 specification allows and he won't start debugging there. And *I* would not demand Simon waste his time, either.
Physics is the law you are facing. And unlike what the current mess in the US believes about laws being optional advice, breaking well proven physical laws has real consequences, such as USB2 configurations not working.
{^_^} Yes, Joanne is a hyper-educated engineer who is very grumpy in her old age. I'm done with you.
Physics is the law you are facing. And unlike what the current mess in the US believes about laws being optional advice, breaking well proven physical laws has real consequences, such as USB2 configurations not working.
{^_^} Yes, Joanne is a hyper-educated engineer who is very grumpy in her old age. I'm done with you.
Re: USB Error
Just for the record, the computer is a new one (as of last spring) with USB 3.x ports, Intel Core 7, 16GB memory, with an SSD. So that exonerates the machine from the problem.
Furthermore, the USB ports are USB 3.x (not sure what flavor) so they are not 2.0 as you stated. Also for the record, under the exact same conditions, SDRUno does not have a problem when USB Bluk is turned on. Nor do I have issues with a USB dongle type of TV on the same USB hub and single cable.
Therefore, if I do say so myself, it is a completely fair, germane, and rational question to ask the developer's forum whether this can be fixed or not. Or if there is some workaround. And the fact that I am pushing the limits with this (which I admitted from the get go), does in no way de-legitimize the fairness or appropriateness of this question given the context of the situation.
Furthermore, the USB ports are USB 3.x (not sure what flavor) so they are not 2.0 as you stated. Also for the record, under the exact same conditions, SDRUno does not have a problem when USB Bluk is turned on. Nor do I have issues with a USB dongle type of TV on the same USB hub and single cable.
Therefore, if I do say so myself, it is a completely fair, germane, and rational question to ask the developer's forum whether this can be fixed or not. Or if there is some workaround. And the fact that I am pushing the limits with this (which I admitted from the get go), does in no way de-legitimize the fairness or appropriateness of this question given the context of the situation.
Re: USB Error
When speaking to a USB2 device those ports are effectively USB2. That sorta blows your assertion out of the water.
Cannot be fixed if it cannot be duplicated. The evidence that the system works properly with all the equipment you have identified suggests something in your setup is the problem. Presumptions about USB that are not true remains the most likely problem. Does it fail when the units are close together with a short cable? What else is concurrently using or trying to use that USB port? Competing traffic can show the problem. You've not shown us your settings when it is giving problems. (Unmodified screen shots of the full main page of SDRConsole usually show all the settings.) Come to think of it MAYBE some modified screen layout could be causing problems, especially if you have MANY programs and their windows open. Aside from an absurd machine load (such as I often get myself into) I cannot think of a reason you would have problems and other people don't based on the stingy information flow from you. (Basically "It is broke, fix it.") Ah that thought triggered another potential source of error. Are all your audio output ports set to default to 48 ksps?
So run SDRConsole and nothing else and no long USB cables and no antenna. Use the system audio set to 48 ksps. Set the power profile to "always on" with no power saving features on the USB ports. Try to over power the problem. Use TaskManager to raise the priority of SDRConsole to "highest" - not "Real time". Can you make it work that way? You should be able to hear the clicks in the received noise. If so start adding in features you want such as a long cable. When does it fail? Perhaps as well as the screenshot you could also favor us with a list of machine specs. All I know is that it is an Intel I7 machine or recent manufacture with some modest amount of memory and an SSD. Is it built in video processing or is there an NVidia card involved? Perhaps an information dump would be beneficial. That screen shot is important. Please have it showing as MUCH settings data as you can manage, particularly the "Radio" settings for your front end. Maybe we can spot a settings issue.
{^_^}
Cannot be fixed if it cannot be duplicated. The evidence that the system works properly with all the equipment you have identified suggests something in your setup is the problem. Presumptions about USB that are not true remains the most likely problem. Does it fail when the units are close together with a short cable? What else is concurrently using or trying to use that USB port? Competing traffic can show the problem. You've not shown us your settings when it is giving problems. (Unmodified screen shots of the full main page of SDRConsole usually show all the settings.) Come to think of it MAYBE some modified screen layout could be causing problems, especially if you have MANY programs and their windows open. Aside from an absurd machine load (such as I often get myself into) I cannot think of a reason you would have problems and other people don't based on the stingy information flow from you. (Basically "It is broke, fix it.") Ah that thought triggered another potential source of error. Are all your audio output ports set to default to 48 ksps?
So run SDRConsole and nothing else and no long USB cables and no antenna. Use the system audio set to 48 ksps. Set the power profile to "always on" with no power saving features on the USB ports. Try to over power the problem. Use TaskManager to raise the priority of SDRConsole to "highest" - not "Real time". Can you make it work that way? You should be able to hear the clicks in the received noise. If so start adding in features you want such as a long cable. When does it fail? Perhaps as well as the screenshot you could also favor us with a list of machine specs. All I know is that it is an Intel I7 machine or recent manufacture with some modest amount of memory and an SSD. Is it built in video processing or is there an NVidia card involved? Perhaps an information dump would be beneficial. That screen shot is important. Please have it showing as MUCH settings data as you can manage, particularly the "Radio" settings for your front end. Maybe we can spot a settings issue.
{^_^}
Re: USB Error
First off, let’s define a term per Wikipedia that applies here:
A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man". The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man"), instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.[4]
Going back to the beginning, SDRUno under the same conditions does present the problem observed with SDRConsole so long as USB Bulk is turned on. If USB Bulk is not turned on, then it is a problem in SDRUno too but not as much as SDRConsole.
I am not a software engineer. I don’t know what USB Bulk is versus the default (SDRUno calls it Isochronous). All I know is USB Bulk works. I don’t know why. I don’t know other factors might contribute to this.
Regarding USB 2.0 and 3.0. You are wrong. Because as stated previously, the RSPDX-R2 is connected to a powered hub at the connection far end that delivers both USB 3.x data and 45 watts of power (in my case) to the laptop, known as “PD” or “Power Delivery”. This only exists on USB-C 3.x type cables designed and rated for such use as mine are. While the RSPDX-R2 is in fact USB 2.0, it is connected via a standard short USB-A type cable as mentioned in previous posts. Therefore, the fact that the RSPDX-R2 is USB 2.0 is not germane to the context of the discussion.
The long haul cable, as it were, is completely in the USB 3.0 domain. Not USB 2.0. The hub at the far end makes the conversion and repeats the signal.
Given that I claim that USB Bulk fixes the problem with SDRUno, it should be simple for the developer or one of his representatives on this forum to say either this can’t be fixed, won’t be fixed, change X in windows and you will achieve the same result, change Y in SDRC and you will achieve the same result, or acknowledge the feature difference with SDRUno and state that it will be included on some future feature update.
Easy peasy.
A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man". The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man"), instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.[4]
Going back to the beginning, SDRUno under the same conditions does present the problem observed with SDRConsole so long as USB Bulk is turned on. If USB Bulk is not turned on, then it is a problem in SDRUno too but not as much as SDRConsole.
I am not a software engineer. I don’t know what USB Bulk is versus the default (SDRUno calls it Isochronous). All I know is USB Bulk works. I don’t know why. I don’t know other factors might contribute to this.
Regarding USB 2.0 and 3.0. You are wrong. Because as stated previously, the RSPDX-R2 is connected to a powered hub at the connection far end that delivers both USB 3.x data and 45 watts of power (in my case) to the laptop, known as “PD” or “Power Delivery”. This only exists on USB-C 3.x type cables designed and rated for such use as mine are. While the RSPDX-R2 is in fact USB 2.0, it is connected via a standard short USB-A type cable as mentioned in previous posts. Therefore, the fact that the RSPDX-R2 is USB 2.0 is not germane to the context of the discussion.
The long haul cable, as it were, is completely in the USB 3.0 domain. Not USB 2.0. The hub at the far end makes the conversion and repeats the signal.
Given that I claim that USB Bulk fixes the problem with SDRUno, it should be simple for the developer or one of his representatives on this forum to say either this can’t be fixed, won’t be fixed, change X in windows and you will achieve the same result, change Y in SDRC and you will achieve the same result, or acknowledge the feature difference with SDRUno and state that it will be included on some future feature update.
Easy peasy.
Re: USB Error
Bye - it is impossible to fix what is demonstrably not broken. YOU have to fix YOUR setup. And you are offering no information and pictures so we can find your misconfiguration. So I am done here. If somebody else comes along to try to help, please cooperate with him better than you have with me. You've blown my admittedly low tolerance for people who appear to be self-righteous fools. You make changes without having a clue what works. You presume all front ends work the same. You presume you do not have to make reasonable tests. And, you've blown my temper. I'm NOT going to bother Simon with this.
{^_^}
{^_^}